Dec 16, 2023·edited Dec 16, 2023Liked by Meghan Daum
I am reminded of the study of dating sites, where they noted that both men and women frequently rank "sense of humour" as highly attractive qualities in a mate. When asked what "sense of humour" meant to the women they answered, "he makes me laugh." Men? "She laughs at my jokes."
I thought Hitch was a jerk, but I like all your insights about who is funny and why or why not.
I have often thought that men (not all men, and maybe not these days) won't let women/girls be funny -- refuse to perceive us as funny -- because humor involves surprise. The guys needed to be dominant and always-right, so we were not allowed to surprise them and make them laugh.
I've also noticed that when I was young (turned 30 in 1994), women/girls weren't often allowed to improvise and make mistakes and fix them. A dad or some other guy would take over as soon as there was a mistake (for example, with tools or physical skills). So many girls like me learned to give up too easily and not bother taking risks, including risks with being funny.
More recently I've thought that guys who insisted women aren't funny were insecure. If they didn't laugh, they had to believe it was because we weren't funny; if we didn't laugh at their joke, it had to be because we had no sense of humor. They had to control what humor was. Ugh.
I was talking to a good friend - a very funny man - about Hitchen's assertion about women comics recently, with which he agreed. Then I found out that he never really watched women comedians. My personal favorite - the woman who has made me laugh more than any person in the world - is Paula Poundstone. Now, she has lost a step as she has aged (and after the hellscape of her life) but her "crowd work" in her younger years is beyond compare. Lots of men do "crowd work" now - but I have never seen anyone do it to her ability in her prime. Like the perfect opera performance, most of this is lost in history. It it isn't filmed, how do you know? I have seen Paula, perhaps, eight times. Of those, I have never laughed as hard or long or as painfully as when she was working the crowd. Lost to history. Luckily some of her early stuff was filmed and it shows her singular talent. But the filmed stuff is not close to her best.
Ok, to Meghan's comments - Paula fits like a glove. She is not a "woman" in normal sense. Megan writes: "A funny woman, no matter how conventionally lovely, generally has to accept that she’ll also be perceived as a little bit funny looking." Paula dresses - more so than earlier in her career - like a clown. She has pointed out her sexlessness many times. She is one of the exceptions - there are many. But, yeah, men don't have to make any compromises or give up anything as women comics do. So, there are more of men in comedy.
But there is also the fact that people tend of laugh at comedians who really get their own culture. Do you remember the movie "The Kings Of Comedy"? I watched it and found it amusing while the black audience was splitting their guts. I, on the other hand, watched various lesbian comics who nailed our issues - and I was splitting my guts - while I am positive no one else would have got it.
So, that is also part of the issue. My bridge partner, a Jewish guy, thought that various Jewish guys were the funniest comedians (Mel Brooks topped his list.) I, a feminist, find various feminist comedians the funniest. (Just to name names beyond Paula - Ellen Degeneres, Wanda Sykes, Sarah Silverman, Tig Notaro)
So one's personal perspective is crucial to comedy.
I think a lot about this issue and certainly could write more but just wanted to point out what we all know: Meghan is very funny.
I will openly admit to usually skipping over the female comedians performances on Netflix. This is probably unfair and it’s mostly because I really just cannot stand listening to one more rant about the “patriarchy“ . if you have any female comedians to avoid this please let me know!
On the other end of this I can say I didn’t start really experiencing this until I was in my late 30s early 40s. As a fat kid I always relied on being funny to make and keep friends. And I love being funny I still consider it a core part of my self, and part of what helps me enjoy my own company :-) but as I was in my years where I started to become a manager and VP and all those things I found maintaining a sense of humor was much harder. It seems like men could be self deprecating and it made them look better. But when I was self deprecating I got the sense that people just believed my fault was that much more obvious. Ultimately I decided to leave those roles because I just felt like I lost some of the best parts of myself.
Two people I desperately wish were still here both died in 2011 - Hitch and Derrick Bell. They just missed the 21st century culture war that has been marked mostly by the rise of the illiberal Left.
Just think of that Congressional hearing with the college presidents: Hitch would have ripped the Presidents for their sophistry and hypocrisy and he would have ripped the politicians for grandstanding and using Jewish suffering as a pawn to "own the libs".
Bell would have twisted himself into interesting intellectual pretzels explaining why Jews are exempt from the protections of DEI and that people of color can't be racist against "white"Jews. He would use all the right buzzwords (settler colonialist, apartheid) but with a certain flair and panache.
Note: for the unfamiliar, Bell was a Harvard law professor who pioneered what we now know as critical race theory and his work also provided intellectual underpinning for modern DEI infrastructure. Chris Rufo essentially owes his entire career to tearing down what Bell hath wrought.
In the immortal words of Steve Martin: comedy is not pretty. How many women will risk being not pretty for the sake of a laugh? Being funny has never been a sound dating strategy. Sign me, funny – and still single.
That’s a great column. It’s true. Women are not funny, because they lack a sense of humor, but they don’t want to be funny. They lack the courage that Hitchens calls male cruelty. Women should be funny though. However, as a guy--moreover as a guy that my friends and girls also strangely find funny-- in our humor-saturated culture, I actually find humor overrated for both sexes in general nowadays. There is too much of it. And even as a guy I would actually like to make people laugh less at least for the sake of variety. The postmodern situation precludes genuine serious talk. I find that infuriating. That might be a good idea for a future Unspeakable podcast. Good post. I love to read your writing. You should write more on your Substack.
In the interest of nuance, let me suggest that it's important to distinguish between being funny and witty. I gather Meghan (and Hitch) are focussing on funny. The assertion that funny women are funny looking is negated by Lucille Ball , Mary Tyler Moore, and Candice Bergen (dated though these references may be). They may have allowed themselves to look funny at times but were rightly regarded as beauties. However, Meghan isn't just writing about performers, but the rest of us. My experience is similar to Meghan's, I know more funny men than women, and I attribute some of that to the fact that being caregivers (without getting into the bottomless topic of gender, nature, etc) makes women focus on needs (whether they are biological mothers or not) which is a less playful stance.
I'm so fascinated by the topic of humor. What frustrates me about this question of whether women are funny is that it defines humor quite narrowly -- the ability to make a group of people laugh out loud. I guess the question of whether there are biologically-influenced average differences in this type of comedy ability is somewhat interesting if you're trying to understand differential rates of success. There are tons of other factors that likely come into play, both social (probably don't need to rehash those) and psychological (anxiety, risk-taking, perhaps). But, I wouldn't be shocked if innate differences in the capacity (and perhaps motivation) for this type of humor played a significant role.
Humor is so much more than setting the crowd off in raucous laughter, though. There may be some truth in the idea of humor as a means to garner status and power -- and at times a competitive pursuit -- all which align with masculinity. But, to me, social connection, a pretty feminine domain, is even more central to drive to be funny, at least in people's everyday lives. When you make someone laugh, you're giving them a brief positive experience, and sharing in that experience. Although it's not purely selfless -- there is a kind of power involved and some personal enhancement -- humor deepens connections, develops friendships, helps us process hassles and struggles. I think it's also detrimental to men that this isn't more acknowledged. I have a male colleague who's always cracking us up during boring meetings at work, sometimes diffusing tense situations. It serves an important social function. It would likely benefit both women and men if humor were seen more in this context.
I am reminded of the study of dating sites, where they noted that both men and women frequently rank "sense of humour" as highly attractive qualities in a mate. When asked what "sense of humour" meant to the women they answered, "he makes me laugh." Men? "She laughs at my jokes."
I thought Hitch was a jerk, but I like all your insights about who is funny and why or why not.
I have often thought that men (not all men, and maybe not these days) won't let women/girls be funny -- refuse to perceive us as funny -- because humor involves surprise. The guys needed to be dominant and always-right, so we were not allowed to surprise them and make them laugh.
I've also noticed that when I was young (turned 30 in 1994), women/girls weren't often allowed to improvise and make mistakes and fix them. A dad or some other guy would take over as soon as there was a mistake (for example, with tools or physical skills). So many girls like me learned to give up too easily and not bother taking risks, including risks with being funny.
More recently I've thought that guys who insisted women aren't funny were insecure. If they didn't laugh, they had to believe it was because we weren't funny; if we didn't laugh at their joke, it had to be because we had no sense of humor. They had to control what humor was. Ugh.
Moral of the story ... broad generalizations will only be broadly criticized.
I was talking to a good friend - a very funny man - about Hitchen's assertion about women comics recently, with which he agreed. Then I found out that he never really watched women comedians. My personal favorite - the woman who has made me laugh more than any person in the world - is Paula Poundstone. Now, she has lost a step as she has aged (and after the hellscape of her life) but her "crowd work" in her younger years is beyond compare. Lots of men do "crowd work" now - but I have never seen anyone do it to her ability in her prime. Like the perfect opera performance, most of this is lost in history. It it isn't filmed, how do you know? I have seen Paula, perhaps, eight times. Of those, I have never laughed as hard or long or as painfully as when she was working the crowd. Lost to history. Luckily some of her early stuff was filmed and it shows her singular talent. But the filmed stuff is not close to her best.
Ok, to Meghan's comments - Paula fits like a glove. She is not a "woman" in normal sense. Megan writes: "A funny woman, no matter how conventionally lovely, generally has to accept that she’ll also be perceived as a little bit funny looking." Paula dresses - more so than earlier in her career - like a clown. She has pointed out her sexlessness many times. She is one of the exceptions - there are many. But, yeah, men don't have to make any compromises or give up anything as women comics do. So, there are more of men in comedy.
But there is also the fact that people tend of laugh at comedians who really get their own culture. Do you remember the movie "The Kings Of Comedy"? I watched it and found it amusing while the black audience was splitting their guts. I, on the other hand, watched various lesbian comics who nailed our issues - and I was splitting my guts - while I am positive no one else would have got it.
So, that is also part of the issue. My bridge partner, a Jewish guy, thought that various Jewish guys were the funniest comedians (Mel Brooks topped his list.) I, a feminist, find various feminist comedians the funniest. (Just to name names beyond Paula - Ellen Degeneres, Wanda Sykes, Sarah Silverman, Tig Notaro)
So one's personal perspective is crucial to comedy.
I think a lot about this issue and certainly could write more but just wanted to point out what we all know: Meghan is very funny.
I will openly admit to usually skipping over the female comedians performances on Netflix. This is probably unfair and it’s mostly because I really just cannot stand listening to one more rant about the “patriarchy“ . if you have any female comedians to avoid this please let me know!
On the other end of this I can say I didn’t start really experiencing this until I was in my late 30s early 40s. As a fat kid I always relied on being funny to make and keep friends. And I love being funny I still consider it a core part of my self, and part of what helps me enjoy my own company :-) but as I was in my years where I started to become a manager and VP and all those things I found maintaining a sense of humor was much harder. It seems like men could be self deprecating and it made them look better. But when I was self deprecating I got the sense that people just believed my fault was that much more obvious. Ultimately I decided to leave those roles because I just felt like I lost some of the best parts of myself.
Two people I desperately wish were still here both died in 2011 - Hitch and Derrick Bell. They just missed the 21st century culture war that has been marked mostly by the rise of the illiberal Left.
Just think of that Congressional hearing with the college presidents: Hitch would have ripped the Presidents for their sophistry and hypocrisy and he would have ripped the politicians for grandstanding and using Jewish suffering as a pawn to "own the libs".
Bell would have twisted himself into interesting intellectual pretzels explaining why Jews are exempt from the protections of DEI and that people of color can't be racist against "white"Jews. He would use all the right buzzwords (settler colonialist, apartheid) but with a certain flair and panache.
Note: for the unfamiliar, Bell was a Harvard law professor who pioneered what we now know as critical race theory and his work also provided intellectual underpinning for modern DEI infrastructure. Chris Rufo essentially owes his entire career to tearing down what Bell hath wrought.
In the immortal words of Steve Martin: comedy is not pretty. How many women will risk being not pretty for the sake of a laugh? Being funny has never been a sound dating strategy. Sign me, funny – and still single.
I find the whole "women aren't funny" statement definitely has truth to it.
There are funny women but there are fewer of them.
And I find often *what* women say (or write) is funny but not *how* they say it.
I would include Megan in this.
Megan, you are really, very funny. But I do not laugh as much about the jokes in the podcast as when I read an article of yours'.
I really want to, but the delivery just does not work for me.
Katie Herzog is better in this regard. But then she is a lesbian, so, there is a little bit more "male" energy maybe.
That’s a great column. It’s true. Women are not funny, because they lack a sense of humor, but they don’t want to be funny. They lack the courage that Hitchens calls male cruelty. Women should be funny though. However, as a guy--moreover as a guy that my friends and girls also strangely find funny-- in our humor-saturated culture, I actually find humor overrated for both sexes in general nowadays. There is too much of it. And even as a guy I would actually like to make people laugh less at least for the sake of variety. The postmodern situation precludes genuine serious talk. I find that infuriating. That might be a good idea for a future Unspeakable podcast. Good post. I love to read your writing. You should write more on your Substack.
In the interest of nuance, let me suggest that it's important to distinguish between being funny and witty. I gather Meghan (and Hitch) are focussing on funny. The assertion that funny women are funny looking is negated by Lucille Ball , Mary Tyler Moore, and Candice Bergen (dated though these references may be). They may have allowed themselves to look funny at times but were rightly regarded as beauties. However, Meghan isn't just writing about performers, but the rest of us. My experience is similar to Meghan's, I know more funny men than women, and I attribute some of that to the fact that being caregivers (without getting into the bottomless topic of gender, nature, etc) makes women focus on needs (whether they are biological mothers or not) which is a less playful stance.
I'm so fascinated by the topic of humor. What frustrates me about this question of whether women are funny is that it defines humor quite narrowly -- the ability to make a group of people laugh out loud. I guess the question of whether there are biologically-influenced average differences in this type of comedy ability is somewhat interesting if you're trying to understand differential rates of success. There are tons of other factors that likely come into play, both social (probably don't need to rehash those) and psychological (anxiety, risk-taking, perhaps). But, I wouldn't be shocked if innate differences in the capacity (and perhaps motivation) for this type of humor played a significant role.
Humor is so much more than setting the crowd off in raucous laughter, though. There may be some truth in the idea of humor as a means to garner status and power -- and at times a competitive pursuit -- all which align with masculinity. But, to me, social connection, a pretty feminine domain, is even more central to drive to be funny, at least in people's everyday lives. When you make someone laugh, you're giving them a brief positive experience, and sharing in that experience. Although it's not purely selfless -- there is a kind of power involved and some personal enhancement -- humor deepens connections, develops friendships, helps us process hassles and struggles. I think it's also detrimental to men that this isn't more acknowledged. I have a male colleague who's always cracking us up during boring meetings at work, sometimes diffusing tense situations. It serves an important social function. It would likely benefit both women and men if humor were seen more in this context.