I LOVED this discussion! I’ve been somewhat obsessed with these subjects over the last year. Especially the damage feminism has done to male-female relations. I was raised in the 70s by a super feminist mother and older sister. I was reading Ms. Magazine at 9 years old. My sister had a poster on her wall of a fish riding a bicycle (with the quote over it). We had a ‘50s sock hop at middle school and I went dressed as a 50’s girl. That’s how feminist I was raised. My mother told me several times that women are wiser and smarter than men but with her help, I would be close to a woman and by raising me the way she did, I would become the man that women were waiting for all these centuries. Sensitive, caring, understanding, ready to listen, never making her uncomfortable. Our relationships would be 50/50 in every way but probably defer to the woman in a disagreement. My first confusion was how my sister would hook up with bossy, arrogant Alpha Males - nothing like me at all. As I’m sure you already know, my sex life has be abysmal. Through my early adulthood, I was the friend that woman would call when their “jerk of a boyfriend” did something wrong. I finally found someone who loved me both emotionally and physically and I married her right away. Ok, my mom was right. There are women who love “sensitive" men. Well, forward a few years and the sex was leaking away like one of those “Happy Birthday” party balloons that finally makes it’s way to the floor in the corner of the room. She still loved me dearly in every other way. She blamed it on her infertility, then the death of her father, then some financial struggles we had. I went along for years with occasional sex where it was obviously out of obligation. I left the bed feeling worse than when I entered it so I just stopped asking. Then she finally admitted that she wanted to be “taken” in bed. She actually used the “r@pe”. I’ve done a lot of mental work trying to get myself to accept that’s a valid way of having sex. It goes against everything I know and everything I hear in the media. I thought I was alone in this conundrum but I’ve opened up to many men and I’m surprised to hear similar stories from all but one friend. I’ve concluded that women have a HUGE blindspot about what they think they want vs. what the actually want. In this world where ever problem is a calamity, I rarely hear anyone speak or care about this. It’s like, “Oh, it’s a male problem, we’ll get to that after 50% of CEOs are female”. Thanks for your podcast!
Incredible story ("incredible" as in riveting). Thank you for telling it. Ten years ago I might have told you to write it a short memoir. But, alas . . .
Excellent discussion. Perrry is very courageous to question some of the feminist conventional wisdom that has become so entrenched over the last 50 years.
Two observations
1. Full disclosure - In the last couple of years I have become acquainted with "Princeton Mom" Susan Patton. We are both members of an online message board for alumni and we sometimes meet over Zoom - so take my comments with a grain of salt.
I have long believed that some commentators on the Left misrepresented Patton's views. The caricature was that Patton was telling women "get married at 22 and remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen".
My impression was that Patton's advice was "do your best to find a long-term mate while you're in college/graduate school because never again will you have access to such a large pool of suitable men - you aren't expected to marry this person at 22, you can date and get engaged. So when you are ready to get married at 28-29, you already have someone and you won't have to scrounge through the muck of the modern dating scene." I could certainly be wrong but that was impression back and 2013 and remains so today.
2. I absolutely loved "Bari Weiss Derangement Syndrome". My theory is this: the social justice Left hates traitors more than they hate their clear enemies. Bret Stephens or David Brooks can say something and it will elicit some muttering and a shoulder shrug - "there goes that middle-aged, cisgendered, straight white male being himself again."
But Bari can say the exact same thing as Stephens or Brooks, and the apocalypse is imminent. Think about Bari's demographics:
-Millennial
-Ivy League educated (and at Columbia of all places, the belly of the NYC Leftist beast, not some rural outpost like Cornell, Dartmouth or Princeton)
-Jewish (My perception is that outside of the Israel/Palestine issue, the Left still expects Jewish people to adhere to the orthodoxy)
-open lesbian.
So it's no surprise that Leftist heads explode when someone with those demographics wanders off the ideological plantation. A good comparison is this: Clarence Thomas is subject to vitriol that Samuel Alito and Brett Kavanaugh could never dream of - even when they have the exact same opinion as Thomnas.
It's an interesting, nuanced conversation for sure. It's "funny" (read: scary) that evolution and biology are now seen by many on the fringe-left (who drive much of our cultural machinery) as “taboo.” Just the notion that there are biological differences between men and women is now nearly unsayable in some circles. How can the far-left claim to believe in the sanctity of science while also claiming that there and no biological or sexual differences between the sexes and that men can now become pregnant? If we can’t share a unified objective reality in the most basic degree then where does that leave society? Clearly, there are biological and evolutionary and sexual and psychological differences between men and women. The problem, I think, is making that a contemporary moral issue. It’s not moral; it’s just reality. That is okay. That doesn’t make men bad and women good, or men good and women bad. It just means: this is the baseline we’re working with. We need to acknowledge this truth so that we can actually work on fixing some of the problems encountered between the sexes. I also think the trans situation complicates all of this, especially when you have biological men (who have transitioned) interacting more and more with biological women. Additionally, I see social media as a major contributor to the problem: As we all become more and more “roboticized” by living in our own little digital echo-chambers and viewing each other less and less as fellow humans and more and more as either consumer products (online dating) or enemies on a screen, we seem to be more and more disconnected from each other emotionally and socially. The culture-wars waged by the media on both sides seem intent on pitting men against women. We hear the same tropes over and over again, that women are victims, men are perpetrators, etc. And obviously that is sometimes the case. But really, in the end I think men and women are BOTH “victims” (though I loathe this word due to how hollow it is now) of a media industrial complex that gains a profit from our continual outrage and division. Yes, I do think men today feel more “emasculated.” How could we not? We’re constantly being told that we’re bad, angry, aggressive, problematic. Men try to be vulnerable and then get attacked when it “offends” someone. Many, many men have to compete for a small number of women, because a large proportion of women (this was discussed on the most recent Bill Maher) go for a tiny fraction of the available men. Think about all those men who aren’t getting attention, aren’t getting laid, aren’t skilled at starting a conversation, dating, getting into a relationship, etc. I wish women and men both had more empathy for each other. Right now the perception is that men have it easy; that everything men do is a cakewalk. This just simply isn’t anywhere remotely true. Never has been. Never will be. Do men have power that women don’t have? Yes. Do women have power that men don’t have? Absolutely. Men and women have never been completely “equal” in all possible ways, and I’m sure they never will be. This is a Utopian fantasy. Because we’re different in myriad ways, we will never be exactly the same. There is much work for men to do, for sure, as far as treating women more respectfully and kindly. And there is much work for women to do, in my opinion, in trying to see what it’s like to be a man. In the end, yes, I think broadly speaking men have it “better” in America than women. But it’s not a zero sum game. It’s not winner take all. There are advantages and disadvantages on both sides. It’s a spectrum, not a binary. In fact I think that’s the problem with everything culturally discussed right now: Binaries. Humans are complex and layered and deeply driven by evolution and biology and nature AND nurture, as Perry said. There is no easy solution or quick fix to any of this. But we can start with basic objective truths, commonsense, empathy, compassion (on both sides) and thinking of ourselves more as individuals and less as identity groups. Anyway. Long rant. My point is: Good, nuanced podcast. Thanks Meghan and Louise!
Very interesting article! I agree with most of it. I liked this: ‘Meanwhile, when men speak up about what it’s like to be accused of sexual misconduct — or just navigate the sexual arena in general — the only culturally sanctioned response is to paint them as entitled whiners at best and narcissistic and, of course, toxic sociopaths at worst.’ This seems to be a big part of the problem. It’s very similar to the political fissure between left vs right: You’re either good or you’re evil, there’s no in-between. Right now women are good, men are bad. (Just like black is good, white is bad.) We men feel the hatred and rage. How could we not? This is what happens when we fall into the trap of group identity politics. The far right can’t exist without the absurdity of the far left. Men’s Rights groups and antifeminism arose as a reaction to extreme anti-men fervor. It’s a positive feedback loop. What is the solution to all this? No more men? No more police? No more white race? All people are complex and flawed and have the capacity to be manipulative and grotesque. This is beyond obvious. All men know this because we deal with women; we see women in a way they can’t see themselves. (Just like women see men in a way we can’t see ourselves.) The fact that we ignore evolution and biology now also means that everything men do wrong is a moral failing. I’m convinced that the more we focus on group identity the more vicious these culture wars will get. Between the nasty tug-of-war between men and women, black and white we’ve lost empathy for one another. I don’t know how to get that back. This only breeds resentment. Men feel like they can’t express any of their genuine struggles, and yet white middle class women are apparently constant victims. I blame social and legacy media 😫 The sad thing is that both sexes seem to be barricading and withdrawing from each other. Traditional masculinity is seen by the culture on the left as being horrendous and not worth saving. But is it really all bad? Would women truly want a world with totally feminine men?
I LOVED this discussion! I’ve been somewhat obsessed with these subjects over the last year. Especially the damage feminism has done to male-female relations. I was raised in the 70s by a super feminist mother and older sister. I was reading Ms. Magazine at 9 years old. My sister had a poster on her wall of a fish riding a bicycle (with the quote over it). We had a ‘50s sock hop at middle school and I went dressed as a 50’s girl. That’s how feminist I was raised. My mother told me several times that women are wiser and smarter than men but with her help, I would be close to a woman and by raising me the way she did, I would become the man that women were waiting for all these centuries. Sensitive, caring, understanding, ready to listen, never making her uncomfortable. Our relationships would be 50/50 in every way but probably defer to the woman in a disagreement. My first confusion was how my sister would hook up with bossy, arrogant Alpha Males - nothing like me at all. As I’m sure you already know, my sex life has be abysmal. Through my early adulthood, I was the friend that woman would call when their “jerk of a boyfriend” did something wrong. I finally found someone who loved me both emotionally and physically and I married her right away. Ok, my mom was right. There are women who love “sensitive" men. Well, forward a few years and the sex was leaking away like one of those “Happy Birthday” party balloons that finally makes it’s way to the floor in the corner of the room. She still loved me dearly in every other way. She blamed it on her infertility, then the death of her father, then some financial struggles we had. I went along for years with occasional sex where it was obviously out of obligation. I left the bed feeling worse than when I entered it so I just stopped asking. Then she finally admitted that she wanted to be “taken” in bed. She actually used the “r@pe”. I’ve done a lot of mental work trying to get myself to accept that’s a valid way of having sex. It goes against everything I know and everything I hear in the media. I thought I was alone in this conundrum but I’ve opened up to many men and I’m surprised to hear similar stories from all but one friend. I’ve concluded that women have a HUGE blindspot about what they think they want vs. what the actually want. In this world where ever problem is a calamity, I rarely hear anyone speak or care about this. It’s like, “Oh, it’s a male problem, we’ll get to that after 50% of CEOs are female”. Thanks for your podcast!
Check out “Way of the Superior Man” by David Deida. He speaks to these issues really well without resorting to red pill reactionary nonsense.
I will! Thanks for taking the time to help.
Incredible story ("incredible" as in riveting). Thank you for telling it. Ten years ago I might have told you to write it a short memoir. But, alas . . .
Thanks. Coming from you…wow!
Meghan,
Excellent discussion. Perrry is very courageous to question some of the feminist conventional wisdom that has become so entrenched over the last 50 years.
Two observations
1. Full disclosure - In the last couple of years I have become acquainted with "Princeton Mom" Susan Patton. We are both members of an online message board for alumni and we sometimes meet over Zoom - so take my comments with a grain of salt.
I have long believed that some commentators on the Left misrepresented Patton's views. The caricature was that Patton was telling women "get married at 22 and remain barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen".
My impression was that Patton's advice was "do your best to find a long-term mate while you're in college/graduate school because never again will you have access to such a large pool of suitable men - you aren't expected to marry this person at 22, you can date and get engaged. So when you are ready to get married at 28-29, you already have someone and you won't have to scrounge through the muck of the modern dating scene." I could certainly be wrong but that was impression back and 2013 and remains so today.
2. I absolutely loved "Bari Weiss Derangement Syndrome". My theory is this: the social justice Left hates traitors more than they hate their clear enemies. Bret Stephens or David Brooks can say something and it will elicit some muttering and a shoulder shrug - "there goes that middle-aged, cisgendered, straight white male being himself again."
But Bari can say the exact same thing as Stephens or Brooks, and the apocalypse is imminent. Think about Bari's demographics:
-Millennial
-Ivy League educated (and at Columbia of all places, the belly of the NYC Leftist beast, not some rural outpost like Cornell, Dartmouth or Princeton)
-Jewish (My perception is that outside of the Israel/Palestine issue, the Left still expects Jewish people to adhere to the orthodoxy)
-open lesbian.
So it's no surprise that Leftist heads explode when someone with those demographics wanders off the ideological plantation. A good comparison is this: Clarence Thomas is subject to vitriol that Samuel Alito and Brett Kavanaugh could never dream of - even when they have the exact same opinion as Thomnas.
Very true. Though I don't think we're allowed to say "ideological plantation" anymore. [wink emoji]
It's an interesting, nuanced conversation for sure. It's "funny" (read: scary) that evolution and biology are now seen by many on the fringe-left (who drive much of our cultural machinery) as “taboo.” Just the notion that there are biological differences between men and women is now nearly unsayable in some circles. How can the far-left claim to believe in the sanctity of science while also claiming that there and no biological or sexual differences between the sexes and that men can now become pregnant? If we can’t share a unified objective reality in the most basic degree then where does that leave society? Clearly, there are biological and evolutionary and sexual and psychological differences between men and women. The problem, I think, is making that a contemporary moral issue. It’s not moral; it’s just reality. That is okay. That doesn’t make men bad and women good, or men good and women bad. It just means: this is the baseline we’re working with. We need to acknowledge this truth so that we can actually work on fixing some of the problems encountered between the sexes. I also think the trans situation complicates all of this, especially when you have biological men (who have transitioned) interacting more and more with biological women. Additionally, I see social media as a major contributor to the problem: As we all become more and more “roboticized” by living in our own little digital echo-chambers and viewing each other less and less as fellow humans and more and more as either consumer products (online dating) or enemies on a screen, we seem to be more and more disconnected from each other emotionally and socially. The culture-wars waged by the media on both sides seem intent on pitting men against women. We hear the same tropes over and over again, that women are victims, men are perpetrators, etc. And obviously that is sometimes the case. But really, in the end I think men and women are BOTH “victims” (though I loathe this word due to how hollow it is now) of a media industrial complex that gains a profit from our continual outrage and division. Yes, I do think men today feel more “emasculated.” How could we not? We’re constantly being told that we’re bad, angry, aggressive, problematic. Men try to be vulnerable and then get attacked when it “offends” someone. Many, many men have to compete for a small number of women, because a large proportion of women (this was discussed on the most recent Bill Maher) go for a tiny fraction of the available men. Think about all those men who aren’t getting attention, aren’t getting laid, aren’t skilled at starting a conversation, dating, getting into a relationship, etc. I wish women and men both had more empathy for each other. Right now the perception is that men have it easy; that everything men do is a cakewalk. This just simply isn’t anywhere remotely true. Never has been. Never will be. Do men have power that women don’t have? Yes. Do women have power that men don’t have? Absolutely. Men and women have never been completely “equal” in all possible ways, and I’m sure they never will be. This is a Utopian fantasy. Because we’re different in myriad ways, we will never be exactly the same. There is much work for men to do, for sure, as far as treating women more respectfully and kindly. And there is much work for women to do, in my opinion, in trying to see what it’s like to be a man. In the end, yes, I think broadly speaking men have it “better” in America than women. But it’s not a zero sum game. It’s not winner take all. There are advantages and disadvantages on both sides. It’s a spectrum, not a binary. In fact I think that’s the problem with everything culturally discussed right now: Binaries. Humans are complex and layered and deeply driven by evolution and biology and nature AND nurture, as Perry said. There is no easy solution or quick fix to any of this. But we can start with basic objective truths, commonsense, empathy, compassion (on both sides) and thinking of ourselves more as individuals and less as identity groups. Anyway. Long rant. My point is: Good, nuanced podcast. Thanks Meghan and Louise!
Thank you, Michael. Very well put. The idea that life is hard for everyone and that both sexes are capable of causing damage is something I talked a lot about in The Problem With Everything. And you might find this interesting if you never stumbled upon it. https://gen.medium.com/metoo-will-not-survive-unless-we-recognize-toxic-femininity-6e82704ee616
Very interesting article! I agree with most of it. I liked this: ‘Meanwhile, when men speak up about what it’s like to be accused of sexual misconduct — or just navigate the sexual arena in general — the only culturally sanctioned response is to paint them as entitled whiners at best and narcissistic and, of course, toxic sociopaths at worst.’ This seems to be a big part of the problem. It’s very similar to the political fissure between left vs right: You’re either good or you’re evil, there’s no in-between. Right now women are good, men are bad. (Just like black is good, white is bad.) We men feel the hatred and rage. How could we not? This is what happens when we fall into the trap of group identity politics. The far right can’t exist without the absurdity of the far left. Men’s Rights groups and antifeminism arose as a reaction to extreme anti-men fervor. It’s a positive feedback loop. What is the solution to all this? No more men? No more police? No more white race? All people are complex and flawed and have the capacity to be manipulative and grotesque. This is beyond obvious. All men know this because we deal with women; we see women in a way they can’t see themselves. (Just like women see men in a way we can’t see ourselves.) The fact that we ignore evolution and biology now also means that everything men do wrong is a moral failing. I’m convinced that the more we focus on group identity the more vicious these culture wars will get. Between the nasty tug-of-war between men and women, black and white we’ve lost empathy for one another. I don’t know how to get that back. This only breeds resentment. Men feel like they can’t express any of their genuine struggles, and yet white middle class women are apparently constant victims. I blame social and legacy media 😫 The sad thing is that both sexes seem to be barricading and withdrawing from each other. Traditional masculinity is seen by the culture on the left as being horrendous and not worth saving. But is it really all bad? Would women truly want a world with totally feminine men?